Episode 7 / Samara Bay
Your Voice Can Change What Power Sounds Like: Samara Bay on What’s at Stake When We Overlook Voice Biases
What You'll Learn in This Episode:
What voice bias is and how we overcome stigmas
Why we need a new sound of power - and how your voice can contribute
How we can raise the next generation to accept and embrace varied communication styles
What’s at stake when we don’t understand society’s standards around voice and leadership
How to gain confidence in your business and yourself by embracing your voice’s thumbprint: your idiolect
Voice coach and author Samara Bay unpacks the nuances of voice bias and its effects on personal and professional leadership. Delving into Samara's unique experiences, both in Hollywood as a distinguished dialect coach and as an individual who has grappled with her own voice challenges, this conversation is a journey through the insecurities that come with public speaking, the social constructs around power and voice, and the importance of embracing diversity in communication.
About SAMARA BAY
Samara Bay is the author of the 2023 Penguin Random House bestseller PERMISSION TO SPEAK: How to Change What Power Sounds Like, Starting with You. Behind the scenes, she coaches everyone from Hollywood celebrities to rising leaders in business & politics and high school girls ready for a new kind of leadership. She speaks and runs trainings around the world on the new sound of power—a question-everything unlearning about what speaking in public is all about.
"When I'm in powerless mode, I tend to have this thought of ‘what are the rules? Why can't I figure out the rules? The puzzle pieces aren't fitting together. Why can't I figure out the puzzle pieces? What's wrong with me?’
When I'm in powerful mood, I'm like — the rules were never meant for me."
Samara bay
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Lindsey Epperly [00:00:12]:
Welcome to Who Made You The Boss? A podcast for recovering workaholics. I'm your host, Lindsey Epperly, and I invite you to embark on a transformative journey. Our mission on who made you the boss? Is clear. We're here to tackle the unique, unique challenges that today's professionals face. We're bringing you insightful conversations with a diverse range of entrepreneurs, executives, and creatives, all who have forged their own paths. And I'm sharing some of the stories of my decades long career as a leader of my company, Jetset World travel. Whether you're a seasoned professional or just starting out on your journey, join us each week as we unravel the mysteries of leadership, self discovery, and the pursuit of fulfillment. It is time to redefine what it means to be the boss of your own life.
Lindsey Epperly [00:00:54]:
Let's dive in, and together we'll discover who made you the boss. Welcome, listeners, to another enlightening episode of Who Made You The Boss? Today with my friend and the wonderful Samara Bay. This woman is a powerhouse, you guys. She is not just the author of permission to speak? How to change what power sounds like, starting with you, but behind the scenes. She is the go to coach for individuals who are on the brink of a new era of leadership, from celebrities to politicians. And she's teaching them how to use their voices for the better listeners. She does that for us today, too. She teaches us not just how to use our own voices, but how to instill that kind of confidence in our children, to teach them to begin to observe and unpack the way they use theirs and how they lead this next generation.
Lindsey Epperly [00:01:54]:
Guys, today, the episode is like, it is so good. I just love it. So let's dive right into this conversation with the absolutely incredible Samara Bay. Samara Bay, I'm so excited to chat with you today.
Samara Bay [00:02:15]:
Why, thank you.
Lindsey Epperly [00:02:17]:
I feel like I'm fan girling, but I know you. So am I still out to fangirl?
Samara Bay [00:02:20]:
Is this, you know, I mean, why don't we mutually fangirl? That feels very right.
Lindsey Epperly [00:02:25]:
Yes. I'm so excited because we've now been able to have some fun conversations and I've been able to get to know you better. And I'm just so thrilled to kind of go deeper in that. And really what I want to start with, the audience knows a little bit about your background, but you have such a wonderful, storied career already with Hollywood celebrities and rising leaders and young politicians and really teaching people kind of how they articulate themselves in different ways. And I just want to hear a little bit more about the path that has shaped you to becoming that authority figure in this communication space.
Samara Bay [00:03:00]:
Oh, I love that. Also, your use of the word articulate, it's like, it's not articulate. Like, we have to be articulate, right? Because people have drama around that, and I don't want to be the one being like, yes, you must sound articulate. But how we articulate is actually, like, when you think of, like, a dancer articulating, it's like how you move your small parts, the parts of our life that are the connective parts, how we move ourselves in space vocally as well as with our bodies. I love that I have this background, as you said, as a dialect coach in Hollywood, and always, always been interested in deeper questions than just accent and sound. But I didn't really know how that was going to manifest until this wild moment in the summer of 2018. I was in Washington, DC. I was coaching gal Gadot on Wonder Woman two.
Samara Bay [00:03:53]:
And I like to joke that I have this background teaching movie stars what to do with their tongues. It's like, it is that minimal of work. It's hilarious, but there's a lot of hang time, and there's a lot of, especially when English is their second language. And this is not just gal. It's a lot of Hollywood people. They're big old movie stars. They, in certain ways, are, like, our cultural epitome of success. And yet when it comes to their voice, when it comes to how they present and specifically how they expect that they're going to be perceived, it can get really drama.
Samara Bay [00:04:25]:
E. The amount of insecurity that really successful people have when it comes to being seen and heard in public. And so as a role. Yeah, sure. Right. I mean, I was coaching her on really, this out of date term accent reduction, which really just means, like, if English is your second language and there's some vowel sounds in American English that you don't have as easy access to, we help you open those up so that american ears can hear you. But it was also always this deeper stuff of, like, okay, but how do you breathe like a person who deserves to be there? And right in the middle of that summer when, quite frankly, I had very little to do, because I don't know if anyone's seen Wonder Woman two, but she flies a lot. And especially the whole DC component, it was like, all stunt work.
Samara Bay [00:05:10]:
And I was, like, over on the side with my little earphones in being like, she's not making any sounds because she's up in the air, and they're not even micing her. So why am I here? And it was a very politically fraught summer, right? We were two years into that former president's term. We were heading towards our first midterm. There were all these first time candidates who were running, but we also, I mean, just to bring everyone back and trigger warning. But that was the summer that we were starting to see the pictures of the kids at the border being separated from their families. And I just felt like not just me, but every activist I knew was sort of shell shocked and fried out, fritzed out. And that's terrifying in itself, right? Because it's like the helpers aren't going to be the helpers. Like, who's left, Mr.
Samara Bay [00:06:01]:
Rogers? And it was not lost on me that I was coaching on this project about a made up, perfect heroine who comes in and saves the day. And then here we all were being like, but where's that person? And in the middle of that, I got this call. I was in DC, I got this call from moveon.org, and a friend had put me up for it was, they were just asking if I could join a group of coaches who, for free, were coaching first time candidates for office over Zoom. I mean, like, super unglamorous, but also, like, if you're available, we've got someone for you tomorrow. And I was like, please. I don't know if I'm going to be good at this, but as I like to say, I'm not going to make them worse.
Lindsey Epperly [00:06:50]:
I think you told me that. I love that line.
Samara Bay [00:06:56]:
That changed my life. Yeah, that changed my life. And I still did set stuff for a little while after that. But I sold a podcast and then I sold a book. And what I learned from coaching those women, first of all, they are the wonder women. Like, oh, that's the answer. And second of all, that so many, and I'm speaking to you and me and all of you listening, so many magnificent people. Sometimes I specifically say women, but quite honestly, there's so many of us who aren't totally confident in how we talk when we're being seen.
Samara Bay [00:07:31]:
So many magnificent people have trouble showing up magnificently in the moments that matter, to pitch that idea to the vcs, right, or to pitch themselves into a microphone in front of all these would be constituents. How do you show up as magnificently as you actually are? And I realized that, summer, I can help unlock that.
Lindsey Epperly [00:07:55]:
Absolutely. But take it back to even what made you realize that you could help anyone unlock anything regarding to speaking, is you lost your voice. For a period of time.
Samara Bay [00:08:07]:
Right?
Lindsey Epperly [00:08:08]:
Yeah.
Samara Bay [00:08:09]:
I think that was less about me thinking of myself in an expert capacity and more thinking of myself as a victim, I guess, quote unquote, but specifically because there was such an element of shame around that. And I think that connects me to almost all of my clients, because so many of us just have really mean voices in our head around how we talk. So when I was in my early 20s. You're referencing something I talk about in the intro of the book. In my early twenty s, I was in the middle of an acting program. Terrible timing. I lost my voice, and I wasn't sick. And it came on over.
Samara Bay [00:08:48]:
It came on. It came off, really, over many months, and it was just deeply painful to talk. And so finally, I just stopped and kept going to class, but everybody ignored me, because when you don't talk, no one looks to you for comment. And I dropped out of the play. And I dropped. I finally got myself to an ear, nose, and throat doctor, and they stuck this little scope, a little camera up my nose and down the back of my throat. Not a feeling you forget. And I got a photo of my vocal cords, and I learned from this image that I had growing blisters on both sides of the little v of my vocal cords.
Samara Bay [00:09:28]:
And anybody listening who has this, you know where I'm going with this? Vocal nodules. So it's like, not quite at know. I'm Adele and I need surgery, but it's like, something's got to give or I will. It's like when you rake along for an hour and the calluses start to build, but they're not, like, calloused yet. And I went back to class that day after I'd missed the morning session to go see this doctor. And the guy who ran the entire acting program in front of everybody stopped class and said, so what's the diagnosis? And I was, like, barely able to talk, but I pushed through as audibly as I could, and I said, vocal nodules. I have to go on vocal rest for a month. And he said, yeah, just as I thought.
Samara Bay [00:10:20]:
Bad usage.
Lindsey Epperly [00:10:25]:
Bad usage.
Samara Bay [00:10:26]:
Right? What is that even? Exactly. But you know what? I felt that ball of shit.
Lindsey Epperly [00:10:34]:
You have shape.
Samara Bay [00:10:35]:
Of course. Right? Who cares what the words are, right?
Lindsey Epperly [00:10:38]:
He clearly was saying what I've done wrong.
Samara Bay [00:10:40]:
Exactly. He's like, totally. You're the victim. We see it. Wow. What an injury. So sorry. You're also the perpetrator.
Samara Bay [00:10:46]:
You did this to yourself. That's what I got there. And I was like, I took that month. It was perfectly timed, really. Around Christmas break, I went back home, I stayed with my parents, and I found a speech pathologist. And she literally retaught me how to speak. And the nodules went away, and voila. But all that happened in, like, a month, month and a half.
Samara Bay [00:11:10]:
But that shame ball that he threw me, that stuck around. And I didn't even realize until I was nearly done writing this book. I wrote the intro at the end that it's the book that I wished I'd had at 24 because I was, like, that idea of self sabotage that I did this to myself. I didn't know where to. Right.
Lindsey Epperly [00:11:34]:
What do you do with that?
Samara Bay [00:11:36]:
And I say that because for all of us who've ever been told, even by a really well meaning mentor, you're never going to get taken seriously if you keep saying, like, so much. Or do you notice how much you say, whatever. All of these little comments sometimes are even meaner than that. Right? You sound annoying. Your laugh is weird.
Lindsey Epperly [00:11:58]:
Right?
Samara Bay [00:11:58]:
All these things. Your voice is high pitched. Your voice is low pitch. Oh, my God. Are you. Man, all the things we've heard, and those were just the ones for women, but, like, fill in the gaps, right? Anybody listening? Just take a moment and love on the fact that you have probably accumulated a bunch of tiny, little offhanded comments that have played an outsized influence in your mind on what you should be doing, what you're doing wrong, what you should be doing, if you want to, quote unquote, get taken seriously. Yes.
Lindsey Epperly [00:12:31]:
Well, and I mean, the entire premise of the book, which, side note, I'm not just saying this, and this is why it came up in conversation with Jackie Gifford. This is so funny. We were talking about books that we love this year. This is on an interview that will air probably before this. Um, and I brag on you all the time because I just loved your book and, you know, hanging out, and I was like, oh, you didn't read this one? And she was like, oh, I know, Samara. But it truly was such a great book because of the entire premise, it's not just about the voice. And it was your idea that when we change the story of what power sounds like, then we change who has the power. I mean, tell us more about this.
Lindsey Epperly [00:13:11]:
Yeah, you can snap for. It's yours.
Samara Bay [00:13:16]:
I appreciate it so much. Yeah. What I realized when I was coaching those women in 2018 was partly that, yeah, put me in front of them and they get better. I really did learn that, which was, like, cool. But the other thing I learned is that why is it so hard? Why do we feel like our voice is a site of insecurity for almost all of us? Well, because there is this standard of what a powerful person is supposed to sound like, and it's invisible because high voices are invisible. Spoiler alert. So no one teaches us there's a standard, and you have to either chase the standard or stand out and be different. No one says this, but I realized this as I was listening to these women because the assumption is I sound different, so I sound wrong.
Samara Bay [00:14:03]:
So if I have an accent or if I am soft spoken, or if I'm more roundabout in how I talk instead of direct, or if I go up at the end of my sentences or if I say, like, sometimes these are all markers of feminine speech or of accented speech. Right. Or linguists would call it, like, class based or race based markers, then what's the standard? None of those. Okay, cool. So the way that racism and sexism plays out is all the ways we can name. And also that there is this voice standard where if you want to get taken seriously, quote unquote right. If you want to sound like leadership has traditionally sounded, you should fill in the blank. And by the way, fill in the blank.
Samara Bay [00:14:52]:
If you google right now, how do I sound more authoritative, which clearly many people must have done, because if you put that into Google instantly, like Google does, you get such helpful advice. It's like five bullet points. It's literally keep the pitch of your voice low. So don't talk like this. Talk like this. By the way, how'd I get vocal nodules? Oh, my God. Because I started talking low. Because at some point in my late teens or early twenty s, I must have picked up this habit of sounding a little tiny bit below my body's, quote unquote, optimum pitch.
Samara Bay [00:15:24]:
So I wasn't like full Elizabeth Holmes. I didn't know I was doing something, but my anatomy did. It was like, hey, that's not actually going to work out in the long term, but it worked out in the short term. Because when you pitch your voice a little low, people take you. Are these, there are these quick fixes for somebody to get taken seriously. And what I'm here to do is say, I don't think that all of us, women, people of color, queer folks, immigrants, anybody who feels like they talk different, if we are just going to endlessly try to chase that standard, we're going to endlessly keep ourselves out of joy, quite honestly, out of centering that how we sound is right and how we sound is the reflection of the life we've actually lived. And that's what our people need. And it's a big leap, right.
Samara Bay [00:16:19]:
Because it may mean that people who are listening to us do go quick, biased decision of like, oh, they have an accent. I don't take them seriously. Yeah, that's possible. So there's some cultural learning to be done on what voice bias is, and then there's also just inner work we get to do of, like, let me take the gamble. It isn't a zero sum game. I either show up more like myself or I get taken seriously. No, there is this third way, which is I show up like myself with such a sense of permission, such a sense of inner confidence that comes from knowing you deserve to take up time and space and that your weird ideas are good, that people listen. And when you show up emotionally available instead of this standard of sort of stoic, is when people trust you and is the only way, actually, that we can all make any impact.
Lindsey Epperly [00:17:13]:
Right. But we all have to be educated on it, because we all have to understand our implicit bias toward not trusting when we hear those voices totally, because.
Samara Bay [00:17:20]:
The bias is not just out, but in. Right. We are not just dismissing other people, we're dismissing ourselves completely.
Lindsey Epperly [00:17:26]:
That's why it was such a great book, because it made you reflect in both directions and suddenly realize, I didn't even know there was such a thing as voice bias. And, wow, does it permeate.
Samara Bay [00:17:35]:
I'm like, why do I care about the voice? Well, not because I care about the sounds coming out of any of our mouths. It's our relationship to those sounds that ends up affecting, literally, whether or not we go for our dreams and change the world right where we are or not. Yeah, well, you know, in massive ways.
Lindsey Epperly [00:17:51]:
It makes you sit back and think, too. Or made me sit back and think, at least on the moments that I have done it myself. Right. As I climb in any sort of position of leadership or a position of power by running my own company. Or interestingly enough, I think I almost have two different voices here of, am I in a position of leadership and talking in a certain way, or am I speaking to a client? In which case I'm in a position of servitude and talking in another way. And you note about this, that women, just when we want to come across as nice, we raise our voices even higher. We sound a little bit sweeter. I will never forget being on a phone call with a client.
Lindsey Epperly [00:18:27]:
I was driving down the road with my husband, who was just my boyfriend. At the time. And I remember after I got off the phone call, this is the first time he had ever heard me talk to a client. He goes, that wasn't your laugh. And I was like, what do you mean that wasn't your laugh? And then he started referring to this as my client voice because apparently, unbeknownst to me, there is a different way I would deliver to sound nice. And don't you want to trust me? And I would love to help you with that. It's like Disney princess style, right? Like it was just a different.
Samara Bay [00:18:57]:
Well, and so, I mean, beautiful observation and thank you. Like, this is all part of our voice stories. We all have a story about, an ongoing story about our relationship to our voice that starts when we're little and it includes all those comments people make and then the true wisms that we believe about how we come across. Right. But I also want to honor that we are allowed to sound different ways in different contexts. I think there's like a cultural myth that we have one authentic voice and everything else is fake.
Lindsey Epperly [00:19:27]:
Okay.
Samara Bay [00:19:27]:
And so instead, I want to offer what a linguist would say, which is that every habit any of us have ever picked up vocally, including how to talk to clients, we have picked up because it works or because it has worked in the past. And this is part of, honestly, my anti shame campaign, because we can go, oh, why do I do that? What's wrong with me? Right? Instead of taking a second, okay, maybe I'll want to change that habit, or maybe I won't, right? That's an interesting thing. But before that, just celebrate how resilient we are. We picked up so many habits to be unintimidating because they worked, because people with more power around us needed us to do that in order to keep us close.
Lindsey Epperly [00:20:11]:
Where do you draw the line? And I do appreciate that. I appreciate the permission to have grace and to also recognize, well, yeah, I mean, I built a business on it, right? So it did work. But where do you draw the line between being unintimidating and people pleasing?
Samara Bay [00:20:25]:
They're connected. They're totally connected. I think actually it's less about drawing that line and more about drawing the line of, okay, but when do I want to switch into something that feels more powerful? Where I'm now not trying to have the proximal power, as they say, of keeping the people in power happy, but actually deciding I'm that person, it's my time power, which is obviously connected to the spirit of this podcast. Right? And for many of us, it's like, there is this moment. I think it's often the moment that people pick up my book or that a conversation like this really resonates. It's this moment where there's a little kernel of fury. There's a little I'm sick of this. And the I'm sick of this is what.
Samara Bay [00:21:12]:
It's the world. It's you. Who knows? But that sense of, like, I'm going to now name that I'm eyeing power in a different way. I'm going to be a different kind of leader, or I'm going to go after that promotion from the point of view of I'm beyond deserving of this, rather than, if you please. Would you please?
Lindsey Epperly [00:21:36]:
Yeah.
Samara Bay [00:21:37]:
And that shift that happens is like, I mean, we use this phrase in our culture of stepping into your power, right? It's so abstract. I kind of never use it because it just feels like one of those cliches. But there is this energetic shift, which I think is, like, what my book is about. And so that can happen when you're getting out of high school. That can happen when you're getting out of college, that can happen when you're in a career shift. That can happen when you're in your. Have a kid and you're back to work in a different way. Right.
Samara Bay [00:22:02]:
But what they all have in comment is some sort of an up level transitioning moment where you're just like, the old way of me. My old way of being isn't working for me. It's not in my best interest. It was, right. But it's not anymore.
Lindsey Epperly [00:22:19]:
I love those types of moments because I feel like a lot of times we fear them to begin with, right. We think of the way that our life is going to transform when that actually working title for my manuscript is the monsters that save us.
Samara Bay [00:22:34]:
Right.
Lindsey Epperly [00:22:34]:
It's the idea that the thing that's hiding in the closet, the thing that we are so terrified of when it actually happens, it refines us and kind of delivers us to who we're supposed to be. And I feel like that's exactly what you're talking about. When you have that shift, sometimes it's as imperceptible as actually just picking up a book and reading it and realizing, oh, I've been doing that. But sometimes it is the life altering situation that causes it. Right. That's why even, like, getting fired from.
Samara Bay [00:23:00]:
A job where you were doing everything, right, and you're like, well, if that's not going to pay off, what is?
Lindsey Epperly [00:23:08]:
Yeah, but it's also the losing your voice. You had that pivotal moment early twenty s and realized, wait a minute, something is here. Everything I knew before this has to change totally.
Samara Bay [00:23:22]:
And yet it was also a growing realization, because at first it was just like, there was a me me element of, like, why me? Why am I not normal? And then I started to talk about it. So there is a lesson in here for me, for all of us, of many times when we feel really weird. Why am I such a weirdo? Why can't I hack it? Right? All the things we associate with imposter syndrome, often it's because we've accidentally thought we've drunk the cultural Kool aid, that we're the only one. And I think we know, I mean, every self help book out there is basically out there to say, you're not alone. Totally.
Lindsey Epperly [00:24:00]:
It's why I started this podcast. I want the conversation to exist of when you look in the mirror and sometimes have that little gremlin that says.
Samara Bay [00:24:06]:
Like, who made you the boss?
Lindsey Epperly [00:24:08]:
I want you to be able to say with confidence, me. I took the rates here, and I'm very happy with that. But you just mentioned impostor syndrome, which comes up a lot, because I feel like that is when I think of the modern multiple horsemen of professional challenges these days.
Samara Bay [00:24:23]:
Right?
Lindsey Epperly [00:24:23]:
Like, it's imposter syndrome. It's burnout, it's people pleasing. It's the things that we kind of deal with and oftentimes don't necessarily dive deeper into. And so I want to actually camp out on impostor syndrome, because you actually touch on this in your book, too. I remember you mentioning that it strikes everyone differently. And when it strikes you, it makes you claustrophobic. And I would love to hear more about that.
Samara Bay [00:24:48]:
Yeah, I feel like one of the things that I've noticed about myself and that I often bring to clients, actually, is if you think about, okay, here's an exercise, right, do this however you want. I'm not giving you homework. There's no accountability. But if you want it, there's an exercise where you can think about for a moment, maybe light a candle, wiggle it out. Right? Like, get your body into a place where you can kind of go there emotionally and think about what you tend to think and feel and do when you feel powerless or like a victim. I. What do you tend to think? Right. What are the kinds of thoughts that tend to go through your head? What do you tend to feel? Where does it happen in your body? And what do you tend to do? Right.
Samara Bay [00:25:31]:
Do you close everybody out do you call a friend or. That's impossible because it just feels like you just need to go under the covers and hide from the world. And then of course, there is this, like, shake it off and other side, which is, what do you do? What do you tend to think, feel and do when you feel powerful? Or if victim was on one side of that page, then creator, right? When you're in, like, flow creator mode, what do you tend to think, feel and do? And something I noticed when somebody led me through this exercise was that when I'm in powerless mode, I tend to have this thought of, like, what are the rules? Why can't I figure out the rules? The puzzle pieces aren't fitting together. Why can't I figure out the puzzle pieces? What's wrong with me? When I'm in powerful mood, I'm like, the rules were never meant for me.
Lindsey Epperly [00:26:25]:
Totally.
Samara Bay [00:26:27]:
Oh, hello, rules. Let me question you. And so I almost can diagnose whether I've been powerless or powerful. It's pretty obvious otherwise, right? But if I notice that I'm like, why can't I figure this out? Which is a version of impostor syndrome, that it's going to do things to my body. I am not a creator in that mode. I should not sit down and write my book in that mode, right? I should not work on my next project in that mode and just noticing it's a mode, right? Rather, it's not like, why. If we start asking the why question of, like, why do I get this way about impossible, the answer is our society. It's not us.
Samara Bay [00:27:05]:
The question is, how did I get here? How do I get out? Yeah. Beautiful.
Lindsey Epperly [00:27:12]:
I like that exercise. I do think we should assign it as homework and have everyone report back to us.
Samara Bay [00:27:17]:
Report back and don't make my discovery. Be your discovery.
Lindsey Epperly [00:27:21]:
I've heard you recently started teaching fifth graders.
Samara Bay [00:27:28]:
I did get involved. My kids school. We were just talking about this off air. My kids school is doing a whole unit on activism, and the teacher asked me and a few other parents, including one woman who ran for state assembly, to come in. So we came in this morning and listen. Those fifth graders are ready to go.
Lindsey Epperly [00:27:50]:
We've talked a lot about the feminine voice and the power from females and how important it is as we address an audience of both men and women, that there is room here for men to understand themselves as well through the lens of understanding the women that they love in their lives. And I want to talk about. You even had notes in the book about men being conditioned to go towards superhero voice. And, of course, in this culture of what is becoming more and more obsessed with toxic masculinity, superhero voice sounds like probably not a helpful reinforcer. Right?
Samara Bay [00:28:26]:
I noticed this back when I was working exclusively with actors. But a lot of men, and especially if they were british, to sound american or English as a second language, their way of hiding that they were non native american speakers was usually to go down in pitch. Okay? Again, the Internet tells you that's how you sound. Powerful. So, right, to go down in pitch, but to such a degree that you no longer have any pitch variation because it's all stuck in your throat. So you sound like this, and everybody sounds like this, and you're like, well, I don't know, Mike. And I'm like, aha. That's how Batman sounds.
Samara Bay [00:29:05]:
And Batman sounds that way because he's supposed to be phased by, as I say, the book, phased by nothing. Cool. So, look, I'm not here to single handedly detoxify our culture, but I will say that not necessarily in our tiny moments in our office politics, right. We can all work that stuff out. It's complicated, and there's a lot of factors that each of you know more about than I do for your environment, right? But in the moments that matter, when we have the chance to talk in front of a bunch of people or turn a camera on and make a video or pitch our idea in a boardroom, or pitch our product to some vcs who could be holding the purse strings to our future, this is where getting out of our throats and getting out of our mode of hiding will make all the difference. And that is hard to believe in a culture that has told us otherwise our whole lives.
Lindsey Epperly [00:30:06]:
Yeah.
Samara Bay [00:30:07]:
And this is often when I offer, like, okay, here's another exercise melting. But start to notice who you love listening to, who you admire, not just what they say, but how they say it, how they show up. And maybe it's like a one off speech that goes viral, right? Maybe it's somebody at a town hall or an activist or a politician or somebody who wins a Grammy. And there's, like, this speech that's just, like, weirdly emotional, like, unusually so, and just moves people. And it has a moment, right? But maybe it's not even that. Maybe it's how your grandma talks, how she shows up. Right? Oh, my God. My grandmother turns 102 today.
Lindsey Epperly [00:30:52]:
Happy birthday.
Samara Bay [00:30:53]:
Oh, my God. I have to call her right after that.
Lindsey Epperly [00:30:54]:
Happy birthday.
Samara Bay [00:30:55]:
Absolutely.
Lindsey Epperly [00:30:56]:
Call her right now.
Samara Bay [00:30:56]:
Make it. Hold on. Bless. Shout out to my grandma. But really starting to notice, who do I love listening to? Because often that voice in our head that goes, oh, I don't dare show up anyway, except generic. That's our fear and that's our ego. And both of those parts of us can be somewhat quieted by evidence. Our brains need evidence.
Samara Bay [00:31:23]:
But if you start to think about. An early thought for me in this whole process was I watched the TED talk of Jane Goodall, right?
Lindsey Epperly [00:31:36]:
The woman who lived with apes are realists.
Samara Bay [00:31:41]:
Why do I not apes? Whatever. Is apes the super category inside of it?
Lindsey Epperly [00:31:49]:
The prehuman gorilla tracking in our company?
Samara Bay [00:31:51]:
I need to know that. Amazing. That's amazing. So I watched the TED talk of hers, and my dad's a scientist, so I see that she's a scientist. And I know culturally that scientists are sort of supposed to show up a certain way that if you get emotional or if you're sort of soft, that you fear you will, quote unquote, lose credibility. And yet here she is. And I thought, she's actually performing. I don't mean performing in some way that sounds fake, but she's, like, showing for us a new sound of power.
Samara Bay [00:32:34]:
If the standard we just lovingly name the old sound of power, and the idea of the old sound of power is that it kind of sounds one way, that's how those standards work. The new sound of power. My invitation is that you start to fill in. Well, what does the new sound of power sound like? Who do you feel like is showing up that way? And how many different ways are there to show up as the new sound of power? Working with those fifth graders this morning, this kid was like, last year, when I was only nine, I went to the city hall because they had this open thing where people could talk about whatever, some environmental thing. And he's like, and I felt so nervous because I was only nine, and I was like, totally. And for every grown up listening, right. We all feel nervous because we are only. Yes.
Samara Bay [00:33:25]:
Right. And then you can fill in the blank. What? We can totally name the ways that our identity is not the straight, white, rich man and name that our weakness. Or we can go, how is the way that I sound a reflection of the life I've actually lived, that I am proud of or that I'm working to be proud of? And how do I show up, unapologetically, as somebody whose sounds reveal a life.
Lindsey Epperly [00:33:54]:
We'Ve been focusing so much on? I and me and us. But I'm also thinking, as you shared that story with me before we started recording, as we think about the fact that we're both moms. You with your son? I have two daughters. How do we pass this on to the next generation? Because the time is now. This needs to happen. What is it that we're instilling in them? So that our daughters do not naturally reach the age where I think you had it in the tone chapter you talked about, they changed the pitch of their voice to start having people pleasing, essentially. Right? Like you could actually study the age in which a girl's voice has changed to become more obligatory and say, what do we do with that? How do we parent? How do we raise the next generation differently?
Samara Bay [00:34:38]:
With this, I have two answers, I think. But it's a work in progress, right? It's a co creation. The answer to your question is a co creation. Right. But I have two answers that come to mind. One is let them, because there is an element of learning all of that stuff that is about navigating the real world, but let them do it from a point of view. And this is for all of us, but also, especially for our kids, from the point of view of how you're talking is doing what to that person so that we have a sense of agency. I notice that sometimes I go up in my pitch when I'm talking to this person.
Samara Bay [00:35:14]:
I wonder what that's doing. I wonder why. Right? I wonder why.
Lindsey Epperly [00:35:19]:
Yeah.
Samara Bay [00:35:20]:
This is so much more powerful than either feeling trapped in it or not noticing it. Right? That's so interesting. Right? The observation. Because, look, we humans have the capacity, clearly, both vocally and psychologically, and in our bodies and in our breath, we have the capacity to switch up how we sound based on who we're around and what vibe we're picking up? So not going, you're doing that wrong, but going, wow, what is that? What is it about that person that's making me feel like they need me to sound this way if they're going to listen to me?
Lindsey Epperly [00:35:54]:
That's so good because it's the parallel recommendation that Brene Brown has of your emotions. Know, look at these like a scientist.
Samara Bay [00:36:02]:
Right?
Lindsey Epperly [00:36:02]:
Become curious, turn them around, poke at them, and that removes the totally, totally.
Samara Bay [00:36:09]:
And actually puts in place a celebration. Wow, I'm versatile. Wow, I'm versatile. Yeah. Wow, look what I did to get by in that room.
Lindsey Epperly [00:36:19]:
Incredible.
Samara Bay [00:36:20]:
That's my first thought. And my second one is simpler, even actually, which is every chance I have to talk to kids, including today, I'm like, ps, you're the new sound of power. Because actually, we just need to be told that we don't always have to chase the old sound. I have to try to sound like someone else if I want. Right. We're going to actually change the world at scale when all of us who are actually the new sound of power just claim that. Just claim that. Because so many people in charge in so many industries that we can all agree are broken.
Samara Bay [00:36:56]:
Not necessarily bad people. Right. But so many people in charge, I think, and this is a weird thing to say because you're going to have never heard anyone say this, I think, are partly in charge, voted in or promoted up because they sounded the part. And we need a reckoning with what sounding the part has done. That means, because sounding the part does not mean you deserve to be in.
Lindsey Epperly [00:37:24]:
Yeah.
Samara Bay [00:37:25]:
Yeah. And so all of us, including our kids, who are on, like, a know, like journey, we get to look at Jane Goodall and be, ah, be like, I can show up soft and I can show up humanist and I can get a little misty and I can still be inside of curiosity and not have all the answers. And my sentences can go up a little bit at the end sometimes because going down suggests I am closed for debate.
Lindsey Epperly [00:37:57]:
Yeah.
Samara Bay [00:37:58]:
And I can breathe with people and feel things and connect and call that leadership. Yeah.
Lindsey Epperly [00:38:06]:
And that fights against this whole idea of. You talk about it in the book about adultism and how basically we create these effects as well, not just because of society, but also because of our age as we become to a certain point where we should be more serious because that earns us money and we need money to survive and we're doing what we can to survive. That almost shuts down the ability to change because it makes us kind of more stuck in our ways and more certain. And so I feel like this advice is not just for kids. Right. It's kind of for.
Samara Bay [00:38:42]:
Yeah. Adultism is this amazing term created by a woman named Nancy Luna Jimenez, who has, like, a think tank in Pacific Northwest somewhere. And I interviewed her. She's so brilliant. But one of the things that she said, this idea of adultism, she thinks, is sort of the root cause of all the other isms, all the other ways in which we feel trapped by oppression. And as she puts it, it stems from this idea that all of us as kids were told by our teachers and our parents in our society to grow up, to stop being free and that our parents especially do this out of love. Right. They're trying to safeguard us against being the weirdo.
Lindsey Epperly [00:39:29]:
Yeah.
Samara Bay [00:39:31]:
And they don't realize that they're adding to a culture that is not allowed to be a kid. When they're a kid, but also doesn't take, as you sort of put it, like silliness seriously once you're older. The idea of delight, so much of my work, actually, the practical side of it, when I'm in actual coaching and strategy work with people is often about something kind of viscerally simple, which is, how do you talk about what you care about? Like, you care about it? And I think this connects to adultism because what have we been told since we were a kid in grade school? Well, you're a little weird. You're a little over enthusiastic. Be chill. Calm down, calm down. Whoa, whoa. Right? So we're told really early on whether it's anger or sadness or enthusiasm.
Samara Bay [00:40:27]:
Yeah, your emotional life is too much. And then here we are as grown ups trying to pitch our brilliant idea, and we're like, or, but whatever, it's cool. Yeah, well, yeah, that's a learned behavior to hide our care. Or the alternative, the other extreme, which is a different form of hiding, which is what you discussed earlier, which is over caring, pretending that you care when you don't. Because customer service voice. Because the ways in which we've been socialized to be like, oh, yeah, wow, that's so wow. Right? And you're like, on the one hand, right? If we're looking, if we're. If we're imagining a spectrum, on the one hand, under caring.
Samara Bay [00:41:14]:
Right. It's cool, whatever. It's fine. We get an idea.
Lindsey Epperly [00:41:17]:
I didn't really want it.
Samara Bay [00:41:18]:
No, yeah, whatever. Right? So understandable. My heart goes out. Right? But not a helpful way to show up when you're saying something that matters to you, matters to you. And then, on the other hand, is the pushing, the overcaring. So what I want to talk about it, right. Which can come across as something that makes people lean back. So the sweet spot in the middle.
Samara Bay [00:41:42]:
This is hard to find. Right? This is something we do get to practice, by the way, with our friends, like catch ourselves. Catch yourself when you're talking to your favorite people around whom you do not feel like you have to put on an act or prove yourself, when you just have some ridiculous, like, oh, my God, you'll never guess who I just ran into at Starbucks, and you'll find out what you sound like. Right. It doesn't have to be a care. Like, this is my life's work, although that's fine, too, right? But it can just be a care. Like, this moment rocked me. I have not seen them since before the pandemic.
Samara Bay [00:42:15]:
And can you believe what happened and look, right?
Lindsey Epperly [00:42:17]:
Yeah.
Samara Bay [00:42:18]:
Notice that version of you, by the way. Hard to notice those moments because those are often when we are the least self conscious. So I'm asking you to sort of catch a moment when you're otherwise not catching yourself, but like, hi, who's that person? What would she be like in a pitch?
Lindsey Epperly [00:42:35]:
Probably pretty compelling.
Samara Bay [00:42:37]:
Probably pretty compelling. Oh, here's something I care about. Shall we care about it together?
Lindsey Epperly [00:42:42]:
How fascinating that we have to learn. Right? Because it's all about, actually we have to unlearn.
Samara Bay [00:42:48]:
It's both. Yeah, exactly. Because of the socialization.
Lindsey Epperly [00:42:51]:
Completely.
Samara Bay [00:42:51]:
And I think you're right. I mean, I think part of why I say I'm on an anti shame campaign is just because, let's just love on the fact that we've all been socialized. We're not going to unbesose. But now, what next?
Lindsey Epperly [00:43:05]:
Now that we know, how do we do better? I could talk to you about this all day long, and I wish we did have all day long to talk about it, but we don't. Which is why I just simply recommend someone pick up your book because it is so good and wonderful.
Samara Bay [00:43:19]:
Thank you.
Lindsey Epperly [00:43:20]:
I want to direct them to follow along with you as well. Where do people stay in touch? Where do they follow Samara and what's next?
Samara Bay [00:43:29]:
I am launching a substac. You can be part of the community. It's called how to show up with Samarve. Okay, tell us and find it on.
Lindsey Epperly [00:43:40]:
Okay, what? How to show up. I like that.
Samara Bay [00:43:46]:
Taking.
Lindsey Epperly [00:43:46]:
Can you give us any more details on the thing on substac is that.
Samara Bay [00:43:52]:
It'S like I just got indoctrinated into the wonders of substac.
Lindsey Epperly [00:43:57]:
I was just like, I'm actually very new to it.
Samara Bay [00:44:00]:
I was living in this world where I thought substac was just like blogging from the, was like, I'm good, thanks. And then actually, Shannon Watts, who is this incredible activist who started mom's demand and has like 10 million followers to the cause now and has impacted legislation at all levels. She's amazing and such a woman, supporting women. And she totally pulled me aside and was like, why are you not on substac? I'm going to introduce you to people over there. They're going to explain the whole thing to you. So now I have the whole explanation. And it really is, I mean, it's a community for writers, but also, obviously for readers. And because I'm going to make it a little sideways.
Samara Bay [00:44:45]:
It's not just like my musings on something, it really is like guidance and tips and vulnerable truths that I have discovered about how to show up, by which I mean the permission to speak side of it. But also, you know what I'm really interested in these days that I don't think we talk about enough. How do you hold onto a vision or a belief before other people see it? This is how all movements, but also all businesses, get made. And the actual daily practice of believing your thing when there isn't enough evidence for other people to be throwing you millions of dollars is actually going to impact whether or not your thing becomes a thing.
Lindsey Epperly [00:45:38]:
Yeah.
Samara Bay [00:45:41]:
So I'm going to start gathering conversations around this.
Lindsey Epperly [00:45:47]:
I love that. Well, that speaks a lot to the entrepreneurial journey in particular, because there's a reason that a lot of narcissists and psychopaths and et cetera are entrepreneurs, because oftentimes I say we. Like, I just categorize myself into that. I notice that there's that natural thing where you're like, well, no one's going to believe this, but a lot of entrepreneurs, like, no, I mean, they're going to believe it because I believe it. So it's an interesting thing to think about.
Samara Bay [00:46:10]:
The hesitation. We hesitate. Yes. Look, we need that confidence. We need the delusions of grandeur. And then also, like, are they delusions? Question mark, maybe. And how much is delusions of grandeur? A good strategy? But also, let's be honest, because there is a social justice component to this whole conversation. That level of confidence in yourself is not doled out evenly.
Lindsey Epperly [00:46:36]:
No, it is not.
Samara Bay [00:46:37]:
I mean, this is why the bros are the bros for all the rest of us. We get to be like, what would it be to walk into a room being like, thank God for them that I am here? Yeah.
Lindsey Epperly [00:46:51]:
How do I show up? Okay. Subsequent, we will absolutely link to that in the show notes to make sure people know exactly where to find you on that. And before we part, I always like to ask people, what is one thing that made you smile today?
Samara Bay [00:47:06]:
I mean, those fifth graders, this boy who was cool, he was like a cool kid afterwards was like, can I ask a question? And of course, I was like, of course. What do you want to know? He was so cute. And then he said, I would love advice on what to do about sea life because I care about the ocean and I'm worried about the fish, and I'm worried that there's nothing that I could personally do. And he started to get teary in this way that was shockingly unapologetic. And then he said, I'm very sentimental. Please don't ever change. And yeah, let's think about the skills you have and the ways that you can use the things you do and the things you love to do good in the world. That tends to be the best way, right? Of course you can have your parents google what are ways that kids can get involved and go down to a beautification project by the beach.
Samara Bay [00:48:11]:
Totally. Also good. But he was like, do you think animation would help? Oh my God, that's a direct quote. I was animation? Are you an anime? Please. Do you have a YouTube channel? Kids these days?
Lindsey Epperly [00:48:25]:
Anyway, that's incredible.
Samara Bay [00:48:26]:
That made me smile.
Lindsey Epperly [00:48:28]:
I love that smile. And I love how often it has made you smile. Since you told me about it at.
Samara Bay [00:48:32]:
The beginning of the conversation, I was.
Lindsey Epperly [00:48:34]:
Hoping it would find its way in here. So thank you for sharing that story.
Samara Bay [00:48:38]:
I also asked for consent and then gave him a really big hug because I was like, you're just like standing in a classroom crying about the ocean. We should all be crying about the ocean. Thank you for showing up for humanity leds.
Lindsey Epperly [00:48:52]:
I love it. Well, thank you for showing up for humanity and the work that you're putting out there. It is wonderful and we are grateful for you.
Samara Bay [00:48:59]:
Thank you.
Lindsey Epperly [00:49:00]:
Thanks, Amara and that lovely listeners brings us to the end of today's episode. We truly hope you enjoyed this deep dive into the world of leadership and professional development with who made you the boss? If you've gained some valuable insights today, we would love to hear from you. Please take a moment. Go to your favorite podcast platform, search for who made you the boss and leave us a five star rating and review. That feedback helps us tremendously as we're creating content that resonates and empowers. Stay connected with us too by visiting lindseyepperly.com and there you can subscribe to our newsletter and ensure you never miss an episode or an exciting update. You can connect with me personally as well on Instagram and LinkedIn. And let's continue the conversation with ourselves and other like minded individuals who are redefining what it means to be the boss of our own lives.
Lindsey Epperly [00:49:52]:
So thank you listeners for being a part of this journey. And until next time, remember, you have the power to shape your destiny. So keep leading, keep learning, and most.
Samara Bay [00:50:01]:
Importantly, keep being the boss of your own incredible storybook.